Chris Matthews really went after former Bush press secretary, Ari Flesicher yesterday. Here is the blow by blow. Excerpt below:
MATTHEWS: What brings you back? Is this the return from Elba? Is this the 100 days of Napoleon`s return from Crawford? What is going on with this network of former Bushies -- current Bushies, I should say -- singing the old song?
FLEISCHER: Well, Chris, I`m here because you invited me to be here.
MATTHEWS: Oh, yes. OK. I appreciate that. But isn`t there a lot of you out there -- I called them the "band of Bushies" -- who are out there trying to remind us of how good he really was?
FLEISCHER: Well, there, of course, is a number of people who believe in George Bush, believe in his policies and believe he helped contribute to a stronger, better America, where we haven`t been hit since September 11. But what happens after you leave office, Chris -- and you know this very well -- is there are a lot of cable shows and a lot of people are still interested in your opinions. And I`m always pleased if I can go on and talk -- mostly, it`s talking contemporaneously about what`s happening with President Obama and just my take on events. And along the way, there are inevitable comparisons or insights you can deliver about what I saw when I was there working for President Bush. I`m proud to say what I think.
MATTHEWS: Well, let`s talk about the change in parties which occurred last year in November. You`re as aware of politics as anybody around. You speak about it. You think about it. You write about it. It seems to me there were two reasons why Barack Obama was elected president. First of all, he won the primaries because he was totally against the war in Iraq. He won the general because the economy sucked.
Now, to put it bluntly, what`s wrong about that? Doesn`t the war still stand as a mistake, as an unpopular war? Doesn`t the economy that you left the country when your party left the country in our hands terrible and worthy of a change of parties? What`s really changed since November?
(CROSSTALK)
FLEISCHER: I don`t think a lot has changed in terms of what you just described. And I would agree with your overall political assessment. It was in part because of Iraq and in large part because of the economy that Barack Obama won.
Having said that, I also think Barack Obama should say thank you every day that he inherited a world without Saddam Hussein in it. Imagine how much worse the Middle East would be if Saddam and his sons were still in charge of that country and how much worse human rights would be in that region of the world.
So it`s not as simple as just saying that one factor contributed to an election. That`s absolutely true in the politics of it. But now that he`s governing it`s a lot more complicated, isn`t it. Take today...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: ... the war in Iraq?
FLEISCHER: Hold on a second, Chris. Take today.
MATTHEWS: ... Ahmadinejad, who doesn`t have a buffer in the region...
FLEISCHER: Chris, today he issued his first signing statement...
MATTHEWS: Right.
FLEISCHER: ... where he put the exact same things that George Bush did in signing statements...
MATTHEWS: OK.
FLEISCHER: ... that you and others criticized George Bush for. My point is that governing is a lot more complicated than mere politics. And I can point that out when I have the ability to compare what happened under George Bush`s watch to Barack Obama`s watch. It`s a lot of nuance and a lot of context.
MATTHEWS: Well, we had the national debt grow from $5.7 when you guys came in to $10.9 when you left. And many Republicans who now speak very loudly on this subject say the reason is that that man we`re looking at right now, your boss for those years, President George W. Bush, never vetoed a single spending bill. He opened the door, the flood gates, to huge spending.
FLEISCHER: Well, actually, the spending on domestic...
MATTHEWS: Isn`t this true?
FLEISCHER: Chris, the spending on domestic discretionary and non- homeland security went up by 1.3 percent a year. What happened was entitlement spending, because of prescription drugs for seniors, and then defense military homeland security went way up, then you had the recession of 2001, which we inherited. That`s all that contributed to it.
Critics will point to the tax cuts. I remind people that the tax cuts led to a record-breaking 55 months of economic growth and job creation. We`ve never in this country had 55 straight months of job creation. We had that under President Bush before the bank failures of September.
MATTHEWS: Are you proud of the economic record of George W. Bush?
FLEISCHER: You know, I think he came in with a recession, he left with a recession...
MATTHEWS: No, really. Are you proud of it? Is it something to brag about?
FLEISCHER: Chris, it`s not a simple one-word answer. I`m not proud of the way...
MATTHEWS: Yes, well, the way we judge success is what you left behind. The way we judge success in life is if you have a campfire as a Boy Scout and you say -- you`re told, Leave it better than when you found it. Did you leave the economy better than you found it?
FLEISCHER: Look, I think when people look back on the Bush years...
MATTHEWS: Isn`t that a fair standard?
FLEISCHER: ... the one thing people are going to remember the most is that he kept us safe. We have not been attacked against since September 11. The second is, as I said, Barack Obama should be thankful that he`s inherited a world without Saddam Hussein in it. The third part...
MATTHEWS: Yes, but we were attacked on your watch. If you start getting into who was attacked when, we suffered the worst domestic calamity in history on your watch. If you get into this whose watch was good, you guys blew it.
FLEISCHER: Chris, I...
MATTHEWS: I don`t know if you can do it that way.
FLEISCHER: Chris, how dare you?
MATTHEWS: But how can you say...
(CROSSTALK)
FLEISCHER: Chris, if we get attacked again -- if we get attacked again, are you going to say we got attacked on Barack Obama`s watch? We got attacked by terrorists.
MATTHEWS: No, no. I`m using the word the way...
FLEISCHER: That`s who`s to blame for it, Chris.
MATTHEWS: ... you`re using it. You`re saying...
FLEISCHER: And I think what you just did is shameful.
MATTHEWS: No, no. I think...
FLEISCHER: I just said that we can all be proud...
MATTHEWS: It`s not shameful to say...
(CROSSTALK)
FLEISCHER: You were bragging about the fact that we weren`t hit after 9/11.
(CROSSTALK)
FLEISCHER: ... proud that we haven`t been attacked since September 11.
MATTHEWS: You`re bragging about the fact we weren`t hit...
FLEISCHER: That`s exactly right.
MATTHEWS: How can you brag about...
FLEISCHER: That`s what people are going to remember about President Bush`s administration.
FLEISCHER: Well, they don`t remember that because his popularity went down to about one of the lowest in American history. He`s down near the bottom of American presidents because people believe that he didn`t do a good job as president. Let`s go back to your standard. I`m not saying...
(CROSSTALK)
FLEISCHER: ... people who look at substance. You`re in the former category.
MATTHEWS: Ari -- Ari, you can`t set up a standard and then not live by it. If the standard is, We didn`t get hit...
FLEISCHER: Who is talking?
MATTHEWS: What?
FLEISCHER: Who`s talking?
MATTHEWS: If you set up a standard...
FLEISCHER: Set up a standard and not live by it, Chris Matthews?
MATTHEWS: Yes.
FLEISCHER: You know, Chris, I don`t recall you saying that James Carville, Paul Begala, those people, shouldn`t be on the air defending their boss, but here you are questioning why people like me would be out there saying things about my boss.
MATTHEWS: Well, because...
FLEISCHER: It`s not a slam-dunk, Chris. There are two sides to every issue.
MATTHEWS: OK. Good. Fair enough. Fair enough.
FLEISCHER: And I get to present that side.
MATTHEWS: OK, give me the argument that you can make again on a couple of fronts. The Iraq war -- back when we got into the war, you admitted that the evidence presented by the president wasn`t fair, that the argument that we were facing a nuclear threat, about the yellowcake from Africa and the purchase of it supposedly from -- by Saddam Hussein, you said wasn`t true. Your words were, That information turned out to be incorrect. You questioned the president`s case for the war, I didn`t.
Are you happy to defend the way Katrina was handled after you left the administration? Are you generally happy with the economic record of the Bush administration? These are broad questions. I think I`m being fair.
FLEISCHER: And my point...
MATTHEWS: And by the way, nobody was tougher...
FLEISCHER: My point to you...
MATTHEWS: Nobody on television was tougher...
FLEISCHER: ... back, Chris, is that we have not been...
MATTHEWS: ... on President -- nobody was tougher on President Clinton than I was, and you know it. So don`t accuse me...
(CROSSTALK)
FLEISCHER: No, I think a lot of people were tougher than you. You were tough on President Clinton, on his ethics and his morality.
MATTHEWS: Don`t say I haven`t been tough.
FLEISCHER: Chris, you were tough on...
MATTHEWS: Don`t say I haven`t been tough.
FLEISCHER: You were tough on his ethics and morality. How couldn`t you be?
MATTHEWS: Well...
FLEISCHER: But as for President Bush, yes, I am proud of the fact we have not been attacked since September 11, and a lot of people deserve credit for it...
MATTHEWS: OK.
FLEISCHER: ... President Bush included. And despite the fact that we were wrong about whether Saddam had WMD because Saddam lied about it and everybody, included Bill Clinton, believed he had WMD, I believe we are all better off and Barack Obama is better off because Saddam Hussein is no longer in this world or in this Middle East creating more trouble.
MATTHEWS: OK. Suppose...
FLEISCHER: And he should be thankful for that.
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you this question as a partisan question. Suppose you knew that a Democratic president had...
FLEISCHER: What else do you ask?
MATTHEWS: ... had gotten a presidential memo, a daily presidential briefing that said, al Qaeda to attack within the United States, and three or four weeks later, they did and killed 3,000 of us. Would you hold that against the incumbent Democratic president, if you knew he was warned directly of an attack coming and then it came with nothing stopping it? Would you say that he was shameful, might be a word you`d use?
FLEISCHER: Chris, first of all, wasn`t warned directly. It was one of those vague warnings about al Qaeda wants to attack in the United States.
MATTHEWS: Inside the United States.
FLEISCHER: Well, is that a surprise to...
MATTHEWS: It was delivered to the president in person...
FLEISCHER: Sure.
MATTHEWS: ... in a daily intelligence briefing. And what did he do with that intelligence?
FLEISCHER: Chris, and this is the real world. This is what`s mind- numbingly frustrating about...
MATTHEWS: See, I`m just asking you how you...
FLEISCHER: Chris...
MATTHEWS: ... would use it politically.
FLEISCHER: Chris, do you ever not interrupt your guests, or is that all you`d like to do? Now, here`s the answer to your question, if you would let me answer it. One of the frustrating parts that the presidency - - and Barack Obama is going to find this -- is that intelligence reports are mind-numbingly frustrating. You get a report saying al Qaeda is determined to attack in the United States. Well, that`s not a surprise. Of course they are. It doesn`t say where. It doesn`t say when. It doesn`t say how.
So if you get a report like that, what do you do? Do you shut down shipping to the United States? Do you shut down air traffic in the United States? How long do you do these things? Do you shut down immigration to the United States? If you don`t know the hows, the whens and the wheres, you`re very limited in what practical steps you can take.
So if Barack Obama were to receive something like that, I would not do what you did. I would not be critical of the incumbent president. I would say this is part of the reality of how hard it is to govern in a world of terrorism and that I wish President Obama tremendous success in stopping terrorists who come here. I wouldn`t put the blame on his shoulders. I put the blame on the shoulders of the terrorists who tried to attack us.
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